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 Posted - 09 Feb 2003 : 3:15:06 PM
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I've been thinking about putting this thread up for weeks now. I've procrastinated for various reasons, but I've finally gotten my backside in gear and done it.
I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on religion. (As opposed to spirituality.) I had a long discussion with GenesGal98 on Yahoo about this very subject the other night, and I would guess that most people who've known me from the chat room or these forums, would find my opinions and views pretty shocking. (Because I have an obvious spiritual side to me, but a very negative view of religion.)
Two or three people I've discussed it with in the chat room have expressed interest in this sort of thread, so here it is. Most people here would consider themselves spiritual, without being pigeon-holed into any particular religion, I would say. Even so there are many here who believe in the stories of Jesus Christ walking among men and doing his works. What do you all think about Him? Do you believe in him? What are your thoughts and opinions? What about your conception of God, or the 12 disciples of Christ? Do you think they were real "flesh and blood" men, or mythical figures?
Anything and everything you care to write about what you think would be invaluable. I myself have been researching religion and spirituality for 3 or 4 years and there's a lot of material I'd like to share with you all. I would like to hear everyone else's opinions first though.
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Posted - 09 Feb 2003 : 3:57:10 PM
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Hi Big Jim 
You know, I had this type of conversation in one of the posts (cant remember which) with Tzu, who was doing a bit of soul searching. Im catholic, only because I had no choice in the matter!!! I believe the bible was written by man to answer man's questions - whether the people in the bible were real I dont know! Maybe the bible is based on people and written imaginatively to 'suck in' the believer.
I believe in what we have come to call Him as God - and believe that He created this world and the other side. Something obviously put us here but we question as incarnating on earth has left us with 'anemesia' and we are left to question and try to answer.
I could go on here but I shall leave at that and quite happy to continue helping you with your query. 
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GuidingLight
Site Owner & Spiritual Medium
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Posted - 09 Feb 2003 : 3:59:51 PM
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One thing I would like to say is that "Spiritualism" is not a cult or religion but a way of life in spreading love, light, hope, healing and the evidence of "Life after Life" to all those you meet on your own spiritual journey.
I am and was brought up a Christian with the Church of England, and as with almost all religions they believe in some sort of after life. As for the bible and Jesus, Jesus was a normal man doing what most mediums, psychics and healers do today, as there weren't many about at that time he was seen to be something special.
3 points to cover (assuming the bible is 100% accuarte)...
1. Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him 3 times thus making a psychic prediction, just one of many predictions.
2. Jesus often spoke with spirits.
3. Jesus healed many people.
This is what many psychics, mediums and healers do today because its so common nowadays no one really thinks its anything special, which it isn't as we can all learn to do all of these things.
What I don't understand about the "Jehovah's Witness" group who believe in the bible yet disagree with all forms of communication with the spiritual realms, but yet they pray and talk to god and god is a spiritual energy
In the bible there are so many contradictions, but what we have to bare in mind is that its been written and re-written over many years, almost like the game chinese whispers, where words are often misheard or missed out altogether and some words even changed, Like rumors around a small village, when the rumor starts it starts as for example "Mr. Green has s*** himself" by the time it gets to the other end of the village its "Mr. Green has shot himself"
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Posted - 09 Feb 2003 : 4:08:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guiding Light
One thing I would like to say is that "Spiritualism" is not a cult or religion but a way of life in spreading love, light, hope, healing and the evidence of "Life after Life" to all those you meet on your own spiritual journey.
Very good point Mark, and the reason I seperated religion and spirituality. The problem with someone denominating themselves as anything with "ism" or "ianity" after it, is that they are limiting themselves. As far as I'm concerned, we are all One and One is all of us. There are no limitation, bar what we put on ourselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Guiding Light
As for the bible and Jesus, Jesus was a normal man doing what most mediums, psychics and healers do today, as there weren't many about at that time he was seen to be something special.
3 points to cover (assuming the bible is 100% accuarte)...
1. Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him 3 times thus making a psychic prediction, just one of many predictions.
2. Jesus often spoke with spirits.
3. Jesus healed
many people.
I've got some interesting information about Jesus, that I'd very much like to kick around with all of you. I'm thinking about how best to phrase it at the moment, because it was the ultimate purpose of creating this thread really. Bearing in mind that I like and respect all the people I've met here, causing offence is the last thing I want to do.
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Posted - 09 Feb 2003 : 7:13:07 PM
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I'm not a big fan of organized religion. I respect people who are, but I myself was never drawn to it. I personally feel that there is too much propaganda and I hate to think that some people get pulled into a set of beliefs because they're afraid of Hell or some kind of horrible after-life. A friend of mine dragged me to a few of her youth groups (I think she thinks my tarot reading is evil. I think it's great that she's concerned with the safely of my soul, and her heart was in the right place, but I'm just not comfortable with it). The pastor said that fear is not a good reason to believe, but if that's what it takes then that's fine. After that I didn't feel very comfortable after he said that (I did happen to meet a nice bunch of people though).
I personally believe many religions were formed because people needed to compensate for their fear of death and the unknown. They couldn't handle the thoughts of not existing anymore so they created something to help ease their fears and help answer their questions.
It must be said though, that many religions focus on a God or higher power of some kind. Keeping in mind that when the religions were formed, people were isolated, and yet many of them believe in something higher. Whether this originated from fear and lack of understanding, is just a coincidence, or something else, is a mystery.
As far as Jesus goes, I agree with Mark. Back then half of us would probably be stoned for even talking about this. Imo, the reason people didn't accept their natural abilities was because religion held such a tight hold on everybody. They were frightened of God and they were frightened of people who would persecute them or brand them insane (Then again, a lot of people now are still worried about being branded insane, so they repress what they hear/feel/see/know/whatever. I did that for many years and some days I still question my sanity).
As I said before though, I do respect people who follow a religion. I'm just not a fan of the propaganda or the social hierarchy it creates.
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Posted - 09 Feb 2003 : 9:11:48 PM
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I'd agree with mosr of what you say there Tiff, but I think Jesus as he is represented in the Bible is more than just a talented psychic. It's written that he claims to be the "only begotten son of God" no less. On top of which raising someone from the dead and raising himself from the dead is beyond the powers of even the most enthusiastic Reiki practioner or spiritual healer.
I would also disagree about how religions came to be. I don't think they were constructed by us as a means to explain what was "out there". At first I thought that might be possible. But what I think is more likely to be the truth ges much deeper than that. I'll make a new post in the next hour or so, explaining the start of my belief about the origins of various faiths.
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Posted - 09 Feb 2003 : 9:33:41 PM
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Point taken. Looking at Jesus that way does change my opinion slightly. Bringing oneself back from the dead is beyond anything anyone now would be able to do.
I'm not saying that the entire basis of every religion is because of fear, though I do think it may have played a big role in it. There had to have been some kind of spiritual basis for religion -- as I said above it's hard to think that most mainstream religions believing in God or a higher power is merely coincidental. I still believe fear played a big role though. I don't like the thought of me not existing; no one likes the thought of only being around once. Fear still plays a big role today; people like to believe because they are frightened, and I'm speaking from personal experience. I had a very troubled childhood because I was so scared I would cease to exist one day. It took me what felt like a long time to find my path. Something about Christianity drew me in that direction, but then I went through a period thinking I would be going to hell because there was something about the psychic side of things that also drew me. It scared me. Eventually I stopped caring and formed my own set of beliefs. It was a very hard thing for someone as young as I was at the time to go through and at this point my beliefs are in perpetual change. Fear played a big role with me. I'm not saying it does with everyone, but I don't believe I'm the only one who has ever been terrified over the issue before.
On the other side of things some people have a need to believe. It's a calling to some; like how I have my writing and my spirituality, others have their religion. I don't believe that can be merely coincidence either, and I do believe that since some have such a deep calling there probably does have to be some deeper intervention.
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GuidingLight
Site Owner & Spiritual Medium
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Posted - 09 Feb 2003 : 11:08:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BigJim
On top of which raising someone from the dead and raising himself from the dead
But he didn't raise the dead or himself from the dead, when he came back he probably came back like we all do as a spirit, what others saw was his spirit, after all you cant bring a body back to life once the spirit has left. We cant communicate with a "dead person" its impossible let alone bringing one back to to life as you know the body is only a shell for our true self, but we can communicate with their spirit
I think this where a lot from the bible gets misinterpreted, people take it literally, it like when they say Jesus will come back he probably already is here somewhere, but this is normal too its known as reincarnation
As for Jesus`s body when it went missing from the tomb, he didn't get up and walk, he couldn't the body was either moved by someone and was not documented, or moved and no one saw the body being moved, or Jesus wasnt even dead or even in the extreme case spirit moved the body as we do know from experience that spirit can move objects, but weather they would have enough energy to move a body would be debatable.
We don't really know how much of the bible translation over the years, we have to bare in mind that pieces could have been lost, pieces added and even pieces taken away.
Interesting topic this
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Posted - 10 Feb 2003 : 12:04:00 AM
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Okay, who am I talking about here? His father was the king of the spirit world/heaven. He was the only begotten son of the chief deity. He was born of a virgin as a result of an immaculate conception. He was born on earth on December 25th and walked among men as a great king. He was a threat to the established order of the time. He was brutally murdered, laid dead in his tomb for 3 days and then came back to life. He reapeared to his followers and then ascended to rule the heavens at the side of his holy father.
Sounds like a simple question I'm sure. I'm even more sure that every one of you would answer that I was talking about Jesus Christ. However, you would'nt be correct. All of the above have been attributed to an almost endless string of deities, of whom Jesus Christ is only one of the most recent. A few years ago, the Archbishop of Canterbury objected to having a Christmas tree in the cathedral because it was a pagan symbol. What makes that so funny is that the whole of the Christian religion is pagan! And not just christianity either. Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddism, Judaism and just about every pre-christianity multi-theistic religion are all exactly the same. They all tell exactly the same story about exactly the same characters. The only difference is the names they give them. Now you might think that would be a perfect corroberation of official religious history, but again you would'nt be right. For millenia now, religion has been nothing (according to what I've studied) but a forcible hi-jacking of human spirituality; for the purpose of controlling masses of people by fear and guilt. The figures you'd read about in just about any religious story are at the very best, loosely based on real people. Often they are flat out fictional and nothing more. What is even worse is that a slightly different version of events has been peddled to different peoples, with the express intention of making sure they hate anyone else who doesn't share their own desperatley limited vision.
To understand where the blueprint for control by religion came from, you have have to look very closely at the oldest pagan religions, of ancient civilisations. The main focus for these was the sun. Whether it was Apollo, Ammon-Ra, Helios, Sol Invictus or whoever, the sun god was always highly venerated because the sun was so important. There were two reasons for this. Firstly it was because of the obvious dependancy of civilisation upon the sun. It provided warmth and light; was directly responsible for how good the harvest would be. In all these ancient civilisations you had a trinity. A chief god, a female and a son figure, who walked amongst mortal men. In ancient Babylon these three were called Nimrod, Semiramis and their son, Tammuz. Tammuz was a "great king amongst men". He was murdered in his 30's by being hung on a tree with a lamb at his feet. They laid his corpse in a tomb and 3 days later the tomb was found open, with the body gone! I've definatley heard that somewhere before...........
And the thing is, that this supposedly happened five to six thousand years BC!!!!!! As time passed there was the same theme in Egypt. There the trinity was Osiris, Isis and Horus. Osiris had an evil broher rebel against him in heaven (called Set or Seth) who murdered him. His sister Isis miraculously conceived a son by him, ressurected him and then bore the infant called Horus. This Horus chap was called a saviour, ruled amongst men, cast down the evil Set and restored his father's kingdom on earth. Horus also had 12 followers and was refered to as "the Kryst". (sp?) Everything that dated from Babylon and Sumer from about 6,000-7,500 BC miraculously transported itself across to Egypt for the Pharohonic period. The legends were identical, butthe names had changed. On a completely different landmass in Central America, you had an identical situation with Queztalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca. But there's more............
In Phrygia there was born a "Son of the gods" called Attis. He was born on December the 25th to a virgin mother. He was refered to as "the Saviour of men, the only begotten Son" and he died to save humanity. He was "crucified" on a Friday and his blood was spilled to redeem the earth. He suffered "death with nails and stakes". He was the Father and Son combined in a human body. He was laid to rest, went down into the underworld, but three days later on the equivalent of March 25th, his body was found missing. Later on, he was found walking about again. His body was symbolised as bread, which was eaten by his followers as a sign of taking him into themselves.
In India there was a godling called Krishna. He was born to a virgin mother on December 25th. His father was a carpenter. A star hovered over his birthplace and there were shepherds and angels of heaven there. The local ruler slaughtered thousands of infants to try to eradicate him, buthe somehow survived. He performed miracles, healed lepers, the sick, the lame and the blind. He died in his 30's, crucified on a tree or post. His close followers refered to him as "Jezeus" or "Jeseus" which translates as "pure essence". It is said in the writing of the Vedas that he will return on a white horse to judge the dead and fight the "Prince of Evil".
Then in Greece there was Dionysus/Bacchus. He was born to a virgin mother on December 25th; put in a manger and covered in swaddling. He was a teacher who travelled throughout the land performing miracles and healing. He turned water into wine. He rode into town on the back of an ass. (As did Seth from Egypt, funnily enough.) His monikers included the ram or lamb, God if the Vine, God of Gods and King of Kings, Only Begotten Son, bearer of sins, the Redeemer, the Anointed One (translated frmo the word "Christos") and the Alpha and the Omega. He was hung and crucified on a tree, but rose from the dead on March the 25th. He was worshipped in Jerusalem during the first century BC. A book called Antiquity Unveiled by J.M. Roberts says that "IES, the Phoenician name for Bacchus, offers the origin to Jesus." This chap reckonsthat IES can be broken up into I (meaning "the One") and ES. (Meaning fire and light.) When these two fragments are amalgamated then, it becomes IES which means "the one light". He then says, "This is none other than the light of St. John's Gospel; and this name is to be found everywhere on christian altars, both protestant and catholic,thus clearly showing that the Christian religion is but a modification of Oriental sun worship, attributed to Zoroaster. The Christians read the same letters "IHS" in the Greek text as "Jes" and the Roman Catholic priesthood added the terminus "us". "
And again, it doesn't finish there. Here is a slightly more complete list of deities and demi-deities, all of whom had similar or identical lives to "Jesus", or were involved in legends around the figure. Apollo, Hercules and Zeus of Greece; Adad and Marduk of Assyria; Buddha Sakia and Indra of India and Tibet; Salivahana of southern India and Bermuda; Osiris and Horus of Egypt; Balder and Frey of Scandinavia; Crie of Chaldea; Zoroaster of Persia; Baal (also known as Bel or Bil) and Taut of Phoenicia; Bali of Afghanistan; Jao of Nepal; Wittoba of Bilingonese; Xamolxis of Thrace; Zoar of the Bonzes; Chu Chulainn of Ireland; Deva Tat, Codom and Sammonocadam of Siam; Alcides of Thebes; Mikado of the Sintoos; Beddru of Japan; Hesus or Eros and Bremrillaham of the Druids; Thor, son of Odin of the Gauls; Cadmus of Greece; Hil and Feta of Mandaites; Gentaut and Quetzalcoatl of Mexico and Central America; Universal Monarch of the Sibyls; Ischy of Formosa; Divine Teacher of Plato; Holy One of Xaca; Fohi, Ieo, Lao-Kium, Chiang-Ti and Tien of China; Ixion and Quirnus of Rome; Prometheus of the Caucasus region; Mohammed or Mahomet of Arabia (only true Prophet, rather than Son); Dahzbog of the Slavs; Jupiter, Jove and Quirinus of Rome; Mithra of India, Persia and Rome.
The worship of the god Mithra pre-dates Christianity by literally millenia, but yet again tells the story that would later become Christianity in acute detail. It is even said that gold, frankincense and myrhh were offered as gifts to him. By the time that the character of Jesus was literally invented, the worship of Mithra and his rites were widespread throughou the Roman Empire. When they founded Christianity in Rome, they used the very symbols and rituals that had been the Mythric myth. Mithra's holy day of the week was Sun-day, because like Jesus he wasn't a real person, but a symbol that represents the sun. Mitra's followers called this "the Lord's day" and they celebrated their main religious feast on what is now Easter in our calender. Mithric initiations were held in a cave adorned with the signs of Capricorn and Cancer, being symbols of the winter and summer solstices. He was portrayed as a winged lion (a solar symbol or depiction in a lot of lands) standing within the coils of a spiralling serpent. The lion and serpent are and have been major symbols of power, religion and royalty all across the world, throughout the ages that humans have existed. The Roman church absorbed the Mithra Eucharist into it's rituals and supplanted the whole religion in that region. Mithra was also recorded as saying......"He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood, so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." Now that rings a very loud bell to me. The very site that the Vatican stands on was a massive site of Mithra worship. In a way it still is; they just re-named him Jesus.
So Mithra was a symbol for the sun and so was his christian counterpar, Jesus. (The light of the world.) Jesus walks on water. (So does the sun's reflection if you want to get picky. lol) Jesus started his Father's work in the temple at the age of 12 and started his main ministry at 30. (The sun reaches it's daily peak at 12 noon, hence Jesus was first known then, and it enters each zodiacal sign at 30 degrees, hence he starts his ministry at that age.) Jesus turned water into wine. (At the root of nature the sun does the same because it makes the vine grow.) There is soooooo much symbolism in these accounts and not least in the bible itself; which is almst entirely pure symbolism. There are the fish, (Pisces) and the 12 disciples (sign of the zodiac) to name just two. To understand that last one, look at a picture of Da Vinci's painting "The Last Supper." We are very much talking two levels of knowledge here. In the most basic form, the people worshipped the sun because of it's effect on the crop; but the people in the know who were doing the manipulating worshipped it because they understood it's power over nature entirely. This is where we start talking about secret societies and conspiracy theories I'm afraid. Leonardo Da Vinci was very high up as an initiate of secret societies as they existed in his day, and he certainly understood what Jesus really was. When you look at that painting, you can see Jesus sitting in the centre and the 12 disciples gathered with 6 on either side of Him. Look even closer and you'll notice that the 12 disciples are gathered in 4 groupd of 3 men. (They're actually huddled into these groups pretty obviously, so it isn't too hard to spot if you're looking for it.) The painting is wholly symbolic of the sun (Son) surrounded by the 12 signs of he zodiac! The reason they're gathered in 4 groups of three is because they symbolise the 4 seasons of the year, with three months in each one.
then let's take the Pisces and fish symbolism even further. Jesus was refered to as the "fish" and the "fisher of men". Perhaps this may have been because at the time that he was alleged to have been born, the Earth was entering the sign of Pisces. Because there is so much symbolism for Jesus and all the other gods assosciated with similar tales througout history, we really can't afford to ignore any possible connection with fish-like or amphibious gods, of ancient peoples. The Nommo of the Dogon people and also the Annedoti were both like this. also, their respective worshipers claimed hey came from the star we call Sirius. (When you look at my profile, you'll begin to understand how I gravitated towards this area of research.)The Dogon people said that the amphibious Nommo had told them that one of their own would be "crucified" too.
And here's another part that makes a nonsense of religion. The most widely used, translated and debated version of the Bible, is the King James version. A survey by the church in the 19th century discovered that the KJB had, wait for it............NEARLY 40,000 TRANSLATION ERRORS!!!!! One of the most noticable of these errors was the translation of the word "Elohim". This was taken to be the singular "God". However the word for God was "Elo". The h-i-m part pluralises it, which means that the bible should have been refering to "the gods" instead of "God". Big difference. This makes more sense when you try to compare Christianity, Islam and Judais which all have the same roots, with the much older, multi-theistic, pagan religions. (It also makes "the Son of God" into "the sons of the gods". Perhaps that refers to the Nephilim of the book of Genesis?) Another big-time translation error was the translation of "the end of the world". (Armagheddon.) The word for world was mistranslated from the Greek word " aeon" and refers to the end of an age, not the whole world. The "end of the age" refers to the earth astronomical/astrological progression from one sign of the zodiac to the other. We are soon to leave the age of Pisces and enter the age of Aquarius. I think this progression more or less syncs with the Mayan's prediction of the end of the age/world as they knew it in 2012. Expect big changes soon then! Perhaps this is why people are beginning to discover their spiritual abilities again, instead of living in fear and guilt?
The deeds attributed to Jesus christ are huge and momentous. Someone like him would have been a serious thorn in the side of whoever held the reigns of power at the time He lived. However, not all seems to gel on this point. Outside of the books of the New Testament, there is no record, sign or account of Jesus Christ anywhere. A brief mention in the words of a Hebrew scholar/historian called Josephus is a rather blatant and obvious attempt at the priesthood trying to cross reference their meal ticket. There are literally scores of writers, historians and philosophers who laid down the history of the Israel/Palestine area at the time Jesus is said to have lived and NOT ONE OF THEM mentions him in so much as a footnote. Philo was alive and kicking through Jesus' whole "life" and wrote extensivley about the Judeans. This covered the whole period. The man lived in or near to Jerusalem all througout the time that Jesus was born of immaculate conception, wowed the elders in the temple, performed miracles and healings,overturned he money lenders tables, drove out demons, nearly gave the local authorities multiple heart attacks, was crucified, returned to life and ascended to heaven. Quite a life. And what does Philo say about this larger than life character, who so dominated his time and place? That's less likely than Mike Tyson turning vegetarian. It is exactly the same with all the very complete roman records, and the work of all of Philo's prominent contempories. There is no simple answer, just a very blunt one from my perspective. These events never happened, because there was no "Jesus". The man himself is symbolic of the sun, and his deeds and miracles are symbolic of the sun's power because of it's importance in pagan religion. And the main reaosn that the hierarchy of these religions worshipped the sun, wasn't because of it's effect on the crop, although that is very important, obviously. It was because they understood the power of the sun's electromagnetism. After light and heat, this is the sun's most effective power on our planet. The sun is quite simply, boiling with electromagnetism. The earth itself it crisscrossed with electromagnetic meridians that were known as "ley lines" in the olden days. On top of that, every living cell on the planet is a conductor of electromagnetic energy. Now this is the power that makes that train in France levitate!!!!! Electromagnetism can do that! It can also transfer information via an electromagnetic wave through the air. Military communication do this all the time. (At least EXTREMELY important ones do.) Now if you can picture a human being who is so in tune with this process that his or her body can channel the energy in the same way that a train or transmitter does; you have scientific explanations for telekinesis and telepathy! Not myth! Not science fiction! Not hogwash! FACT! The sun vastly affects the earth's meridian grid all the time. Whenever two or more of these meridians cross each other, you get a vortex point of seriously intense energy. It's also at places like this that you'll find monuments like Stonehenge, Avebury, the Giza plateau and the temple at Ankhor Wat in south east Asia. These things were massive harnessing focuses for the earth's natural powers! So why havn't we still got them today? you might ask. We have. They're all over the world at points where energy meridians meet. And what's more they're even designed after the fashion of the old esoteric structures, because every shape has a vibration and a wavelength that affects this energy. Egypt is the most ready example to hand. The male energy was represented by an obelisk, symbolic of the penis of Osiris; which was severed by Seth's sword. The female energy was represented by a dome or bowl, symbolic of Isis's womb. Typical male/female energy representations. these symbols were the focused representations of the manipulated energy; the natural energy itself was often depicted as a river. Hence the Egyptians would often build an obelisk on one side of the Nile and a symbol of Isis on the other. Well one of the biggest "vortex points" in europe is in the British Isles, under the City of London. Now get this......near Oxford, the Thames river is refered to as "the Isis". Coincidence? Possibly. But follow it into the city and then stop when we get to the financial district. On one side of the river you have Canary Wharf, the biggest obelisk in the country and right across the river from it, (a stones throw almost exactly) you have the Millenium Dome. In the space of a few hundred square yards you have the river, the obelisk and the dome. The trinity. The father, mother and the product. Massive symbolism on a scarily modern scale. Why the hell would modern architects be following designs practiced in ancient Egypt? I would suggest the answer is because the people who designed the damn things knew perfectly what they represented. What we're talking about is knowledge on two levels, all over again! And I can feel the "I word" coming up pretty soon.
When I use the term "Illuminate" I'm not talking about any one group, or society. I'm refering to all of them as a whole. The whole upshot of this thread, is that these people knew the power of nature and the cosmos. If it's a power that gives normal, ordinary people the sort of abilities that this forum was created to promote, then it would frighten people who had created religion after religion on pure symbolism, and murdered anyone who didn't take it literally. Some of the people here are religious in the conventional sense. That's fine, I don't decry that at all. But when you get to the bare bones of any of the major religions, you see nothing but hate, murder, racism, damnation and fear. According to the Bible itself, the biggest and mosr prolific racist and biggot of them all was God Himself! It makes me damn angry to think that someone could twist Divine Spirit into such a horrible mis-representation. The people here who believe in Jesus, but promote the values of this forum, (patience, tolerance, pychic ability etc) are wonderful people, but don't fit the original mould of religion at all. It was the character called Jesus Himself who said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword!" Conventional religion was a deliberate creation. It was created to imprison humanity and disconnect it from it's infinte power and possibility. That's why so many poor sould were murdered in the name of "God". But it's ending, the stranglehold is breaking. The people who use this forum are the proof of that. Humanity as a whole can hear the ticking of some cosmic, spiritual alarm clock, that is waking them up. I think personally that is why so many people who think of themselves as christians (including me about 3 years ago) do not fit the description at all.
Before I sign off from this mammoth thread, here is one more point about Jesus the Son/sun of God/the gods that I would like to make. As is widely accepted, the sun was the focus of ancient religion and as I've said I believe, Jesus is symbolic of it; not a factual person. Well one of the biggest holy days of any pagan calender was the winter solstice. It was the holiest because it was the end of one solar year nd the start of the next. On December 21st-22nd the sun had reached it's nadir in the northern hemisphere. (Where most ancient civillisations were located.) The ancients said it had "died". By even the most rudimentary of observations/calculations it had begun it's journey back to life and it's full summer strength, by the time 3 days had passed. The pagan/ancients would then have a massive celebration of the sun's rebirth on their calender's equivalent of December the 25th. So let's re-cap...........
1/ The sun/Son dies.........
2/ It spends three days dead or in the underworld.......
3/ It then is re-born/born anew........
4/ And the sun's birthday would then have been on.........DECEMBER 25TH!!!!
That is why symbolic deity after symbolic deity was born on that date; in civilisation after civilisation; millenium after millenium. That is why christianity took all the festival dates from the pagan calender and that is why the Archbishop of Canterbury dropped a clanger when he said Christmas trees were pagan. Christianity IS pagan!
If you got to the end of this post, then congratulations! It took me the best part of two and a half hours to write, and it's totally bushed me. lol I would like to hear your thoughts on all of this, especially those of you who would consider yourselves religious in the conventional sense. There is more information in my head about more specific things, but I can't write any more in one post. If anyone has any questions they'd like to ask, please feel free. If I've come across anything that might be able to answer them, I'll be happy to oblige. What you've just read is the product of about 4 years deep research into every book and paper I could find on the subject. I've read everything from the sublime to the ridiculous. I've gone through authors like Robert Bauval, Maurice Cotterell, David Icke, Diane Stein, Diana Cooper and others I'm too tired to remember now. Some sound credible, some sound dopey and air-headed; but I read them anyway to see if there was anything there. Most of what I learned on religion is included so far, but if there's anything else that anyone wants to know about, please ask.
Edited by - angel on 13 Feb 2003 12:50:35 PM
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Posted - 10 Feb 2003 : 12:11:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guiding Light
quote:
Originally posted by BigJim
On top of which raising someone from the dead and raising himself from the dead
But he didn't raise the dead or himself from the dead, when he came back he probably came back like we all do as a spirit, what others saw was his spirit, after all you cant bring a body back to life once the spirit has left.
As for Jesus`s body when it went missing from the tomb, he didn't get up and walk, he couldn't the body was either moved by someone and was not
With all respect Mark, I have to disagree on both of the above counts. Even the bible itself (which is solid ambiguity) says that Jesus was a solid, flesh and bone person when he came back from the dead. Mary Magdelene was said to have hugged Him, doubting Thomas was encouraged to touch Him to prove he was real, (an impossibility had Jesus been a spirit) and the wounds of the crucifiction were said to be plainly visible. There is no space at all in the Bible's story for it being christ's spirit that the people saw. Bearing mind my views on the Bible being 99% symbolic, perhaps it's a moot point. But if you're a Christian believer (as you say you are within the CoE) then the bible is as explicit as anything can be about Jesus being solid, not spirit.
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Posted - 10 Feb 2003 : 12:28:13 AM
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| Just had another thought Mark. What happened to Lazarus if he wasn't raised from the dead? I have heard people say that he might just have been in a coma, and the ignoarant people didn't realise. But he'd laid in his tomb for days and according to the Bible, stank like a vulture's breakfast. Again if you follow the teachings of the Book, there is no room for manouver. (sp?) On that point it's totally unambiguous for a change.
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GuidingLight
Site Owner & Spiritual Medium
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Posted - 10 Feb 2003 : 12:39:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BigJim
But if you're a Christian believer (as you say you are within the CoE) then the bible is as explicit as anything can be about Jesus being solid, not spirit.
Yes I am a Christian but I don't believe everything I read until I've experienced for myself even more so when it come to the bible, most of my belief has come from my own personal experiences with spirit, the thing is with any of this we only have our own and other peoples experiences to go on, no one can prove anything only offer evidence of survival.
We could all discuss the bible, Jesus and spirit until the cows come home but we wont ever know the real truth, all we have is our own real experiences, speculation on what was written and re-written many years ago and whatever we choose to believe, until our day comes when we return home and see for ourselves
quote:
Originally posted by BigJim
What happened to Lazarus if he wasn't raised from the dead? I have heard people say that he might just have been in a coma, and the ignoarant people didn't realise.
Exactly this is my point, like I said before we don't know how much has been lost or misinterpreted over the years with the bible, the same could have applied to Jesus he may have lost consciousness and woke 3 days later for all we know
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GreenEyesGal98
Gold Member
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Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 1:17:32 PM
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OK, next time the site is down for maintenence....g'z please please WARN me I'm in for a llloooooonnnnggggggggggg chat to catch up on. Whoa nelly....
Aight, well I feel obviously there is a Creature, there are Angels, Sprirts of many sorts. As far as the Bible itself goes...after being involved in many religions (the last Jehovah's <puke> Witness) I've come to this theory....NOW IS NOW!!!!!
Who is around to prove those theories in the Bible?? I'm one that seeing is believeing. I'm not trying to bust on anyone else's beliefs or thinking. This is just mine from personal experiences with Hypocrisy and such.
((((((Hugs))))))
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Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 6:42:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guiding Light
quote:
Originally posted by BigJim
What happened to Lazarus if he wasn't raised from the dead? I have heard people say that he might just have been in a coma, and the ignoarant people didn't realise.
Exactly this is my point, like I said before we don't know how much has been lost or misinterpreted over the years with the bible, the same could have applied to Jesus he may have lost consciousness and woke 3 days later for all we know
To be honest Mark, that doesn't really address the point I made. You only quoted half the passage I wrote, before you commented on it. If you'd quoted the whole paragraph it would have finished.....
"But he'd laid in his tomb for days and according to the Bible, stank like a vulture's breakfast. Again if you follow the teachings of the Book, there is no room for manouver. (sp?) On that point it's totally unambiguous for a change."
Lazarus wasn't the only one that Jesus was said to have restored to life either. He did it at least twice that I can remember. One of the biggest legends and several of his main "nicknames" revolve around the fact that he can conquer physical death, in himself and others. Your philosophy (while having just as much validity in a general discussion) disagrees utterly with established Christian "fact"/legend. It sounds like you've come to your own conclusion on what the Bible says, and re-interpreted it. (As have I, of course.)
Edited by - BigJim on 11 Feb 2003 8:12:53 PM
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Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 6:51:40 PM
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I'm a Catholic, and I don't have much time for religions..they are after all manmade. Man's interpretation of God, to set rules and regulate the masses. Even the bible was written 60 years, or so after Jesus was cruxified. I do however believe in Jesus, he did exist, there is no doubt, but I believe him to be a spiritual teacher. He is of pure love, something which we all have the potential to be, but it will take us many life times to be like him. He is the Son of God, just like we all are, what we are all striving to be. Jesus was here to show us the way, just like other great spiritual teachers, they all have the same message after all, which is to love one another. I also believe that he was a great psychic and healer and I am also coming to believe in the manifestation of events through thought, which is a power we each have within us. Jesus knew this already, and he used his powers, that we all have the potential to have, if only we could remember how, because we were all born with them!
BigJim..you should read 'Conversations with God' this may answer some of your questions
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Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 6:58:30 PM
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To be honest Emerald, I don't really have any questions. I'm just getting hold of as much information from as many sources as possible and studying them all. I think at best, the character of Jesus is loosely based on a number of people; as opposed to being a literal figure. If you do believe that he existed, what did you think was wrong in the information I gave above? What are your thoughts on it? Most importantly of all, why are those your thoughts? I'm very interested to hear people's reasonings on this whole subject.
I very much agree with what you say about us all being Sons/Daughters of God. My conception of the Almighty is an ocean in which every human soul is a drop of water. I believe God to be the sum total of every human soul in the Universe. Eyes everywhere and thus, omnipotent. I think this would disagree somewhat with more orthodox religions though. They believe God to be an individual sentinent being, rather than the sum total of all spirit in the cosmos. Personally, I think religion's depiction of Him, is way too limiting.
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